bonsaikc

Al, I disagree heartily with your Porsche metaphor. Please don't read too much into what I have said so far. I think bonsai is more than wiring. But bad wiring will not work as well. It will not accomplish what we want if it is not anchored properly. It will cut in in odd places if the coils are not laid carefully.

And just because someone wires well, do not think that I believe that makes bad material a good tree.

My point is that wiring is important, and it's a discipline worth learning and practicing. It will improve what we do.

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akeppler

There is a big difference between people who do not know how to wire and people that do, but may be lazy and maybe even a little sloppy. Anchoring wire properly has nothing to do with asthetics. It's mechanical. It either does its job or it doesn't. Asthetics has nothing to do with its holding ability.

I can wire for show and I can wire for training. I have no problem taking shortcuts on trees in training and feel that my abilities are not going to diminish on both depending on the tree. Wireing trees in training and nursery containers for show is just a waste of time. Frankly I don't see much difference in wireing for show or wireing for training except that when I wire for training I am more apt to cross wires and tie off on existing wires. Training wire is seldom on a tree more than a year anyway. A tree in training over a period of 5 years may be wired and unwired 7 times. Knowing your stock and what will be kept and what will be pruned away and needs no training is more important than wireing all the tertiary's just to prune them away the following year. This is the biggest mistake I see beginners make.

Learn the basics of wireing and practise those and save the theatrics for the appropriate time.

Cheers, Al

akeppler

So....you think a 911 Porsche is not a 911 Porsche if it has muddy tires?

AndyWilson

Nice info Chris, unfortunately i cant see the first image, is it your black pine that you wired under Boon's carefull gaze? I agree on good wiring principles, if you do it right it actually tends to look more aesthetically pleasing anyway. But then again i have seen some of the "big names" with some diabolical looking wiring. Wonder why that is?

Thomas J.

This thread has the possibillity of turning into a debate almost like most soil threads, but actually there is nothing to debate here in my opinion. Any job worth doing is worth doing right really applies here. Yes anchor points are necessary and yes god looking wiring jobs do say a lot about the one doing the wiring. If that person had to rewire that same branch five times until it not only looked good visually but did its intended purpose, then that person succeded in his or her goal of having achieved something both in beauty and in mechanics to reach the final goal of having hopefully someday a great bonsai specimen.

It's just another task that you can perceive either important enough to do right and really enjoy the challenge, or just do it and get it over and move on to the next task.

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bonsaikc

Not sure why you couldn't see what we were discussing, but here is a link to the thread it came from:
http://forum.bonsaitalk.com/f86/flyb...try-10883.html

This is not to criticize Brian in any way, I like him and his great spirit.

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bonsaikc

This is not going to turn into a debate.

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Shady Side Bonsai

I can see both side of the coin on this issue. While I understand Al's point of view and agree to some extent. I also can see Thomas and Chris's.

I think it boils down to what stage of of development your in. A person obviously could not use the rational of training wiring and show wiring. That person would need to practice, practice, practice till that ability to fine wire was second nature. This so when show time comes about that he / her doesn't embarrass themselves miserably. Once that person has achieved that particular level. Then if they cross a wire in a training situation it is not as big a deal because it is recognized as a flaw in that technique.

The one point that is in disputable is one that Thomas raised.

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Salvelinus

I think this is good advice, and is how I approach wiring to a certain extent. I always try to wire as if I were going to show the tree, but if I do make a mistake, or need to cross a wire, I will not cut everything off and start over if it is not a tree that will be shown. I do, however, take note and try to figure out how I could have done things better, and try to apply that knowledge the next time I wire.

I think I am learning good wiring with this approach, but I concede that my learning curve will be flatter than someone who settles for nothing but perfect wiring on all their trees. Frankly, I absolutely do not have time to wire more than once . . . I'm lucky to even get to all my trees, let alone spend a whole day on only one, if that tree won't be shown anyway. On my better trees, though, I am VERY particular about the wiring.

I'm not trying to be argumentative with Chris. I suspect much of this advice comes from Chris' relationship with Boon. I've heard and studied with Boon in the past, and heard the same, good advice. It just doesn't fit with my current life situation.

Thanks, good thread, Chris.

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Phil

Well, being that the word disputable means;that can be disputed; debatable, I can only surmise that you don't believe in the old adage "Anything worth doing is worth doing right"? Or, perhaps you meant not disputable?

I myself would not dispute the old adage as more often than not it proves to be well worth it's meaning.

Other than that I don't really find any debate going on here whatsoever. From what little time I have as of late in looking at any of the posts here I find this thread all too interesting. It seems to be a good informative and interesting thread as to whether or not one should practice good wiring at all times. Mind you, I'm not referring to poor wiring as opposed to proper wiring but simply if proper neat wiring is essential whether one is showing a tree or not. I fear that I most often fail at both!

~Phil

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