Mame 4" rule

Paul Williams · 04-01-2008, 08:36 PM

Hi All
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have begun work on some Mame size trees. Several weeks ago I ran into one of my Procumbens Nana’s that like most of them is crying out “cascade, I am a cascade”. So I began its training as a cascade, but then the 4” rule hit me! So here’s my question, is the 4”limit on a cascade, on the overall height, or the length of the cascading branch, or from the soil line to the tip of the cascading branch?
Another question comes to my mind, some day this tree will need a pot, has anyone seen Mame cascade pots for sale?
Good growing
Paul

Prowler · 04-01-2008, 09:38 PM

This has been spoken about before, but for the life of me i cant remember the answer.No doubt you will get a reply, so just hang in there. Cheers.

JLDoggett · 04-01-2008, 11:21 PM

I have never heard of a 4" rule for cascades.

Prowler · 04-02-2008, 04:59 PM

Dogleg
I did ask about this before, quite a while ago, did get an answer, but i cant find it on the site?
So if you could have a look for it using my name, it should be there.
Aint sure if it was a reply or a new thread.
I cant get that search thingy to work for some reason. Cheers.

AlainK · 04-02-2008, 05:26 PM

Hi,
On this page (in Dutch), they say:
"Mame bonsai Shohin bonsai, van 7,5cm tot 15 cm"

But on bonsai4me.com, Harry harrigton writes:

Size classifications: exact sizes for each individual class varies from one authority to another; those below are taken from the 20th Grand View Bonsai Exhibition / Nippon Bonsai Taikan-ten.

MAME bonsai less than 7cm in height
SHOHIN bonsai up to 20cm in height
KIFU bonsai between 20 and 40cm in height
CHU bonsai between 40 and 60 cm in height
DAI bonsai over 60cm in height

Another glossary here :

http://www.tengu-bonsai.nl/Pages/Middle/Middle-Information-Bonsai-Category.htm

And a very clear table on wikipedia :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonsai#Size_classifications

AlainK · 04-02-2008, 05:50 PM

Yo, man

...although Master Yo (Hiroshi Matsud

, a Japanese American, says differently:

Mame - A Bonsai from 3 to 6 inches tall measured from soil to apex.

Well, 6 inches being about 15 cm, who to believe ?...

And, er... Bonsai Outlet gives Mame at 5 to 8 inches.

My oh my, I had always thought a "mame" was 13.5 cm at most

I'm confused. It's all Greek to me.

Ohio goes I'm a.

Prowler · 04-02-2008, 06:03 PM

Alain
Thanks for the link, but i think there are rules about a Mame cascade, aint got a clue, but, you cant simply pop a tree into a large pot and call it a mame just because it is under 4 " tall. We will wait and see. Cheers.

Paul Williams · 04-02-2008, 11:32 PM

Hi All
Indeed there is a lot of confusion as to the max height of Mame trees. I personally have picked the 4” mentioned some places, as a happy medium, and my max height standard. But there must be some sort of rule about the length of a cascading branch. "Master Yo (Hiroshi Matsud

, a Japanese American, says differently:" "Mame - A Bonsai from 3 to 6 inches tall measured from soil to apex." Thanks AlainK, that is the first bit of info that I have seen on the subject from soil to apex That is a definitive statement, and I wonder if others are of the same opinion.
Prowler, you have touched on another point, a Mame is also sometimes described as a tree that is held in one hand, well some of us can hold some big pots in one hand. I have some trees in 3 ½” Pots, dare I call them “training pots”. The trees will eventually go into much smaller pots. I hope someone will be able to come up with some more info on the subject.
Good growing
Paul

Prowler · 04-03-2008, 12:11 AM

Yep, it is a bit confusing, but i think there are rules and regs. on the subject.
When you think about it, most full cascade as long as the apex aint above 4-5 inch tall they could be 3ft long, so we could not call that a mame?
You could grow one in a 2gall pot but it aint NO !! MAME.
I think we will get an answer shortly. Cheers.

treebeard55 · 04-03-2008, 05:34 PM

I believe that in regard to a cascade, you count the vertical distance between the highest and lowest points of the tree. (One of which will be above the soil line, the other below.)

As for mame, I've long understood that be between 3 and 6 inches.

I've seen mame cascade pots; I think most major suppliers would offer them.

04-01-2008, 08:36 PM	#1 (permalink)
Paul Williams Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Mid Florida Posts: 111	Mame 4" rule Hi All As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have begun work on some Mame size trees. Several weeks ago I ran into one of my Procumbens Nana’s that like most of them is crying out “cascade, I am a cascade”. So I began its training as a cascade, but then the 4” rule hit me! So here’s my question, is the 4”limit on a cascade, on the overall height, or the length of the cascading branch, or from the soil line to the tip of the cascading branch? Another question comes to my mind, some day this tree will need a pot, has anyone seen Mame cascade pots for sale? Good growing Paul

04-01-2008, 09:38 PM	#2 (permalink)
Prowler Deceased: 11/24/2008 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Scotland Posts: 361	This has been spoken about before, but for the life of me i cant remember the answer.No doubt you will get a reply, so just hang in there. Cheers. __________________ Its hell out there, give them hell back.

04-01-2008, 11:21 PM	#3 (permalink)
JLDoggett Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: New Hampshire, USA, Posts: 630	I have never heard of a 4" rule for cascades. __________________ "Resolve to be tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving, and tolerant with the weak and wrong....because sometime in your life you will have been all of these" And I further resolve to click on an ad, each time I visit, to help support the site and to be welcoming to lurking guests when you join! After all, you're already here.

04-02-2008, 04:59 PM	#4 (permalink)
Prowler Deceased: 11/24/2008 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Scotland Posts: 361	Dogleg I did ask about this before, quite a while ago, did get an answer, but i cant find it on the site? So if you could have a look for it using my name, it should be there. Aint sure if it was a reply or a new thread. I cant get that search thingy to work for some reason. Cheers. __________________ Its hell out there, give them hell back.

04-02-2008, 05:26 PM	#5 (permalink)
AlainK Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Orléans, France Posts: 187	Hi, On this page (in Dutch), they say: "Mame bonsai Shohin bonsai, van 7,5cm tot 15 cm" But on bonsai4me.com, Harry harrigton writes: Size classifications: exact sizes for each individual class varies from one authority to another; those below are taken from the 20th Grand View Bonsai Exhibition / Nippon Bonsai Taikan-ten. MAME bonsai less than 7cm in height SHOHIN bonsai up to 20cm in height KIFU bonsai between 20 and 40cm in height CHU bonsai between 40 and 60 cm in height DAI bonsai over 60cm in height Another glossary here : http://www.tengu-bonsai.nl/Pages/Middle/Middle-Information-Bonsai-Category.htm And a very clear table on wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonsai#Size_classifications __________________ Alain K. http://www.rdb45.fr http://ak2.apinc.org/bdB

04-02-2008, 05:50 PM	#6 (permalink)
AlainK Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Orléans, France Posts: 187	Yo, man ...although Master Yo (Hiroshi Matsud, a Japanese American, says differently: Mame - A Bonsai from 3 to 6 inches tall measured from soil to apex. Well, 6 inches being about 15 cm, who to believe ?... And, er... Bonsai Outlet gives Mame at 5 to 8 inches. My oh my, I had always thought a "mame" was 13.5 cm at most I'm confused. It's all Greek to me. Ohio goes I'm a. __________________ Alain K. http://www.rdb45.fr http://ak2.apinc.org/bdB

04-02-2008, 06:03 PM	#7 (permalink)
Prowler Deceased: 11/24/2008 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Scotland Posts: 361	Alain Thanks for the link, but i think there are rules about a Mame cascade, aint got a clue, but, you cant simply pop a tree into a large pot and call it a mame just because it is under 4 " tall. We will wait and see. Cheers. __________________ Its hell out there, give them hell back.

04-02-2008, 11:32 PM	#8 (permalink)
Paul Williams Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Mid Florida Posts: 111	Hi All Indeed there is a lot of confusion as to the max height of Mame trees. I personally have picked the 4” mentioned some places, as a happy medium, and my max height standard. But there must be some sort of rule about the length of a cascading branch. "Master Yo (Hiroshi Matsud, a Japanese American, says differently:" "Mame - A Bonsai from 3 to 6 inches tall measured from soil to apex." Thanks AlainK, that is the first bit of info that I have seen on the subject from soil to apex That is a definitive statement, and I wonder if others are of the same opinion. Prowler, you have touched on another point, a Mame is also sometimes described as a tree that is held in one hand, well some of us can hold some big pots in one hand. I have some trees in 3 ½” Pots, dare I call them “training pots”. The trees will eventually go into much smaller pots. I hope someone will be able to come up with some more info on the subject. Good growing Paul

04-03-2008, 12:11 AM	#9 (permalink)
Prowler Deceased: 11/24/2008 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Scotland Posts: 361	Yep, it is a bit confusing, but i think there are rules and regs. on the subject. When you think about it, most full cascade as long as the apex aint above 4-5 inch tall they could be 3ft long, so we could not call that a mame? You could grow one in a 2gall pot but it aint NO !! MAME. I think we will get an answer shortly. Cheers. __________________ Its hell out there, give them hell back.

04-03-2008, 05:34 PM	#10 (permalink)
treebeard55 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Warsaw IN, USA USDA zone 5b Posts: 510	I believe that in regard to a cascade, you count the vertical distance between the highest and lowest points of the tree. (One of which will be above the soil line, the other below.) As for mame, I've long understood that be between 3 and 6 inches. I've seen mame cascade pots; I think most major suppliers would offer them. __________________ Treebeard 55 Steve Moore http://hoosierbonsai.blogspot.com The most important bonsai tool is your brain.

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