abebob

Ok, so I have a question on styling and the growth habit of trees in general, which I haven't really seen discussed anywhere, so I'm not exacty sure how to put it in words. You see a lot out there on wiring pre-bonsai material, starting bonsai from seedlings, nursery stock, etc. But what I have not seen is any good progression photos of young trees through maturity.

What I am wondering is this- if you wire a tree at a very young age, will that styling carry through in a scaled proportion, or will the general height of your trunk bends be the same when the trunk have matured? Does this make sense?

I guess what I am getting at is- does a bonsai's branching stay at the basic same level as where it started, or will it gain altitude as the tree grows? Should you start out with material that is going to be pretty close to the finished height, or will it grow in proportion?

Check out these two scenarios in my attached file and see which one makes more sense. A or B?

Styling aside, this was really quick, and no I dont plan on doing any s-curves anytime soon, but you get the idea:

What do you think?

JLDoggett

Trees would grow in example B, though the curve would straighten out a bit as the trunk thickens. Hight is from new growth upwards so it needs to be wired to match the lower trunk.

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abebob

thanks! that makes sense.

So if you are wanting the final tree to be taller than your material, the apex should just point in the direction you want it to be- otherwise find material that is the height you want and work it from there...correct?

JLDoggett

The most natural way (at least to me) to get movement in a trunk is through sucessive trunk chops. Just bending a think trunk and hoping to get something realistic is basicly a method to produce a lovely "S". However I have never seen this in nature.

As for finding a tree the desired hight. It all depends on where you are buying your material. Unless it was grown to be a bonsia, from someone like Brent, I would expect it would need at least one trunk chop to achieve your desired final hight.

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"Resolve to be tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving, and tolerant with the weak and wrong....because sometime in your life you will have been all of these"

And I further resolve to click on an ad, each time I visit, to help support the site and to be welcoming to lurking guests when you join! After all, you're already here.

abebob

So when you say Brent are you referring to https://www.evergreengardenworks.com ?

Rick Moquin

I'm just going to give a simple reply for the time being.

Bonsai's are not created they are grown. Can you tell the difference? and if so why/what is?

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centaura

Your example of "B" is the correct way that the tree would grow. As far as starting with something that is the desired height, that depends on the starting material. A lot of starter material doesn't have much taper, so you would cut back to a lower point and regrow a new apex which has taper in proportion to the finish tree look that you're going for.

JL also touched on something which is important in dealing with very young trees, they will straighten out as they grow so very, very early wiring will often give a tree more exaggerated bends than will be found in the tree later on, because the tree will fill in on the insides of curves as it grows.

I recently posted this thread:
Japanese hornbeam

showing a young piece of stock cut back and turned into a shohin sized tree. There is a case where my beginner material was much taller than the final tree, and I had to use a low branch as the new leader to get taper in the trunk. As well, I've done a bit of an exaggerated zig in the upper trunk that will slowly fill in and end with a little bit of gentle movement in the future.

The options are varied. If the tree has a natural apex, then yes - "pointing" it in the direction that you want it go is the best way. But you can use a lower branch and turn that into a new apex, you can find a bud that when it sprouts will grow the direction you want, or you can graft or thread graft a new apex. I have a large chinese elm that I'm working on that has a terrible apex, and I thread grafted a new branch at the spot that I want the apex to have movement and will eventually cut off the top few inches once the graft has taken.

-Centaura

abebob

Centaura - Thanks your reply was the most helpful of all! Awesome progression photos, that helped a lot.

abebob

Rick- "You no grow Bonsai, Bonsai grow you" ??? Yeah I know what you are getting at- people want an instant finished bonsai when they do the initial styling from the nursery stock or whatever. But no, it's like chess, you must have your strategy planned out many moves in advance.