Kansai

Tom--You apparently have a different source of information on Turface than I have. I'm just going by the Profile web site. The web site indicates that Turface will absorb about 40% of it's volume in water, and it has no info at all on toxic buildup of fertilizer. Also it offers no recommendations at all for container culture. It does recommend a 15% by volume application for landscape purposes, but has no caveats about exceeding that rate. The 15% rate would mean applying more than a ton of Turface on a 30' by 50' yard to a depth of four inches. But then of course landscape culture has completely different soil dynamics than container culture, and what is recommended for one has no bearing on what is right for the other.

I'm pretty alarmed, though, on what I'm hearing about toxicity. I've be using Turface at about 60% to 70% on most of my trees for years, and I had no idea that I was poisoning them. I sure hope you'll share that source of information with us so that I can learn more in detail.

Thanks--DR

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Bonsai is easy! All you have to do is stare at a little tree until drops of blood form on your forehead.--paraphrased from Gene Fowler

Shady Side Bonsai

DR...My source for this was the regional sales rep for Turface and the propaganda handouts that they give the dealers.

If your using it at that rate and are not having any ill effects then why change. I have many close bonsai chums that use more than the recommended amount....I don't but thats me. The manufacturers of Turface, when talking about a potted soil amendment, may not be taking into account is the frequency of repotting in bonsai culture ...we tick a little different than everyone else.

One last note on referencing the possible toxicity of over the top applications of Turface. In article I referred to above by Colin Lewis. Colin also notes the same cautions of to much Turface. I believe he had always suspected what he stated, but really confirmed that fact when he was exploring the the feasibility of impregnating Turface (calcined clay) with micro-nutrients for the bonsai soil that we manufacture for him. He, the manufacturer of Turface, and the manufacturer of the micro-nutrient all looked at the amounts need of each ingredient to make an altered soil amendment and how much of that amendment should be added to rest of the bonsai mix ingredients by volume.

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Cheers,
Tom
Shady Side Bonsai
Bonsai Vault
4MAAT

Shady Side Bonsai

Rick, Could be Warren found something out while being at the National Arb. I know the vendor that supplies the National Arb with their ingredients for bonsai soil. According to him, the National Arb was ordering a massive amount of Turface when they ordered soil components. All of a sudden the Turface order got back to less than half of what the original amounts had been. Did they figure something out? One can only speculate, but i would think (based on their actions) they came to a conclusion that to much turface could be a bad thing.

I had never heard that before about akadama being toxic in Walters region of the world. I would love to find out why. That is definitely something to file for future referencing...thanks for that tid bit.

As I said earlier I can't tell you why any other calcined clay product like oil dry doesn't make that statement other than the don't market it for horticultural use. I'm not sure though that oil dry doesn't in fact store large amount of salts being that it is a calcined clay.

As far as Haydite goes it is a different product. Horticultural haydite is made from expanded and vitrified shale. Which may or may not have different properties. My in depth knowledge of this product is limited. We sold it early on and then basically discontinued due to the lack of interest in it as a soil amendment. We now offer it bagged in small quantities only as a top dressing. Interestingly enough the National Arb used it as well ... then ...you guessed it, discontinued the use of this product as a main stay.

Akadama and Kanuma are totally different animals from calcined clay. Because they breakdown more readily they, as I understand it, don't have the ability to store the same amount of salts. It is also a rare thing to see either product used in a ratio of 50% or higher due to cost if nothing else.

I understand why your asking this question but wonder in making a comparison of each product side by side are you keeping volume percentages in mind.

Being a long time student of Colin's as you probably know. I have seen ingredients like lava and akadama used neat. I have seen the switch from one type bark to another. However the basic structure of his ingredients are lava, grit, an organic be it bark or sphagnum, Turface and Akadama. The blends are all different for each tree category and even different for different species with in that category. It can be quite maddening at times Hope that description wasn't to vague

WRT: Nope no virtual on the repotting...would love to see it though

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Cheers,
Tom
Shady Side Bonsai
Bonsai Vault
4MAAT

Rick Moquin

Tom,

Walter does not use Akadama because it breaks down in his climate too rapidly (including the dble red line brand) I'm not sure about the toxicity of the product though. But Walter is repulsed at the mere mention of Akadama. From what I have gathered he lost several valuable trees using it.

This conversation is growing exponentially, not dissimilar to the growth of potting mediums in the last decade, moving toward totally inorganic mediums.

I did a little experimenting a couple of years ago surronunding a discussion that ensued at BS and BT. The experiment can be found here. As discussed in my conclusion I cannot refute nor support Warren's findings because of to many intangibles. However I was capable of acquiring anecdotal evidence for myself of which tree faired out better.

I am still very much curious wrt the CEC of other calcinated clay products, in comparison with Turface. MY climate is rather wet here in NS and has a very short growing season. I need a soil that will not retain water hence why my move towards a totally inorganic medium.

Not to hijack this thread any further wrt the new pot, go to gallery in my blog where the tree can be seen on Picasa.

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Bonsai is the journey, not the destination
Bonsai Wonders

Shady Side Bonsai

I recall reading this article on your experiment when you published it. I reread it and its a great article and experiment cudos to you for taking the time.

I think the crux of Warren's issue with turface was its effect over a long duration of time say, 3 years or more.


What I wonder is, what would have happened over a period of time to your same trees and how they preformed. Say going in a complete potting cycle over 3 to 5 years. If you still have those trees in the same pots and mixes would be a great follow up to the experiment. I suppose it is to much to hope for but one can dream

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Cheers,
Tom
Shady Side Bonsai
Bonsai Vault
4MAAT

Egroup

Wow, I really got some, well TONS of advice on this one- thanks to all!! I Am using the oil dry- only got 2 plants in it right now- some azaleas that needed re-potting, and one of them is doing fine, the other has shown signs of stress, but I probably gave it too much work, as this was the first time I styled and I may have gotten carried away while I was working on its roots (the nebari is just hard to find in azaleas sometimes and this guy had tons of roots matted above where the roots really met the trunk), should pull through fine though, assuming my soil is of a decent mix...

Thanks again for all the advice guys- I will give updates on how my attempts at mixing my own soil are going...