Black Pine Candles

Ml_work · 04-30-2009, 11:36 PM

this is my first JBP that I got back in Oct of 08. I have read everything that I can but still get confused about the candle pruning and needle plucking. I was not sure about the candle pruning but did what I thought was correct. I pinched back the long ones almost all the way, the medium about half way and left the weak ones as they were. I thought that the the candle would open up at the point were I had cut/pinched it back to, which would then give me the short needles. Now I see that the original candle that was pinched is not doing anything, but getting new small candles around it. So the one I cut back is not supposed to do anything? If you look at the picture you can see the dark on the top of original candles and new ones coming out around it. I am to cut them also?
And the long needles have some brown tips...is this the oldest needles and getting ready to fall off? I had some close ups of the candles but the picture did not turn out good. Home this one picture show what I am asking.
Thanks,
Michael

Dav4 · 05-01-2009, 08:23 AM

Hey Michael,
I am no pine expert so take this with a grain of salt.
Generally speaking, there should be no candle work or needle work on areas of your tree that will be removed eventually; ie., sacrificial branches. Candling, needle removal, and other needle shortening techniques are for trees further along in their training. Applying these techniques to a young tree early in its training will only slow down its development.
When you "pinch" candles, you are basically breaking off approx. 1/4 to 3/4 off their length, based on the strength of the candle. Candles are "pinched" when the candle is no longer extending and the new needles are just beginning to push out. There needs to be new needles remaining on the pinched candle. It looks from your pics that you basically removed the entire candle. When this is done, dormant buds below the removed candle will activate and start to grow. This procedure, referred to as candling, is generally done later in the spring/early summer and is primarily used to force a second flush of growth with shorter needles.

I've been playing with pine trees for almost 10 years, and I am still getting the hang of it. I've read loads of info, as well. Combining all this info along with observing my trees after pruning them has helped me develop a better understanding of how it all works. Good luck and have fun... that's what its all about.

Dave

noissee · 05-01-2009, 12:09 PM

I am surely not a pine expert either, but I do have some advice. Start a word document or something that records exactly what you did and when, and then what the results were. a few years of records like these will be invaluable to help you understand the pine. It looks like a pretty healthy tree. and I think the brown tips on the long needles are sort of normal. Do you "pat" the needles to test their strrength? I used to do this to my tree, just to see if the needles were nice and strong, but it resulted in broken, brown tips.

bonsaikc · 05-01-2009, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ml_work

this is my first JBP that I got back in Oct of 08. I have read everything that I can but still get confused about the candle pruning and needle plucking. I was not sure about the candle pruning but did what I thought was correct. I pinched back the long ones almost all the way, the medium about half way and left the weak ones as they were. I thought that the the candle would open up at the point were I had cut/pinched it back to, which would then give me the short needles. Now I see that the original candle that was pinched is not doing anything, but getting new small candles around it. So the one I cut back is not supposed to do anything? If you look at the picture you can see the dark on the top of original candles and new ones coming out around it. I am to cut them also?
And the long needles have some brown tips...is this the oldest needles and getting ready to fall off? I had some close ups of the candles but the picture did not turn out good. Home this one picture show what I am asking.
Thanks,
Michael

Michael,
Don't do anything else. It was too early to worry about your candles on JBP. Can you post better pictures of your tree? It looks really young.

Proper candling technique is important for lots of reasons. Here are a few:

Reduction of internodes
Stimulating back budding
Balancing energy throughout the tree
Producing needles that are proportionate in length throughout the tree.

But your tree will need different things at different stages, some branches will need more length, others will need to be cut back, some parts will be nearly complete, others will need more growth.

Let's see your tree and see if we can come up with a plan specific to it.

For the record, I candle my trees the first week of July.

Chris

Ml_work · 05-05-2009, 12:47 AM

Dave, Thanks for the info, it is helpful. I know this tree is young, it was listed as 6 yro when I purchased it from Brussels in Oct 08. It appeared to me to have some short needles already so I figured I would continue with the needle pruning. I really don't know what the final shape will or should be. So I may have slowed it down in an effort to try and maintain the existing shape.?
Quote: "I've been playing with pine trees for almost 10 years, and I am still getting the hang of it."
All this is still very new to me (2 year into bonsai) the more I look at and read about Pine, I get a Much more Respect for the tree and the person that has grown it!

Noissee, I agree that is excellent idea to keep the record ....just taking the time to do it is another thing. I am trying to keep up with my trees by purchase date, place of purchase and soil change and not doing very good job of it. But will try to do the same on the pine, thanks.

Chris, you may see from the start of this to Dave about the age of my pine and why I thought it was time to start or maintain what was already going on with it.

Quote:"Let's see your tree and see if we can come up with a plan specific to it."

I have read most of your articles and admire your work, wish I lived closer I would come to your workshop. So I very much appreciate your offer and opinion. I have some pictures that were posted here when I purchased the tree, I will upload them to this Thread and also a picture of before the candle plucking. The pine had some long candles that would have been much longer needles than the rest of tree if they were allowed to mature and open...(i think). the first and last pictures are from the day I got it, I realize now they don't show much of the structure of the tree, I can take more tomorrow. the other 2 show the candles before I cut them.
Thanks to all for the Help!
Keep LOOkin Up!
Michael

Dav4 · 05-05-2009, 07:43 AM

Michael, I like the last pic- the flow of the trunk is nice...not sure about the roots though. Having a general idea of what you want the tree to look like is absolutely necessary before doing any pruning. Having said that, I will readily admit that I have had one JBP for 8 YEARS and I still haven't conclusively decided on it's final design...and yes, I have played around with candling/needle removal/approach grafting, etc on this tree over the last few years, as well. The tree is coming along, and I will shortly make a final decision about it. It will never be a great tree but it has taught me alot about growing and shaping pines. The only JBP I have killed died because I did extreme root reduction out of season... they are very forgiving trees. Have fun...

Dave

bonsaikc · 05-05-2009, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ml_work

Dave, Thanks for the info, it is helpful. I know this tree is young, it was listed as 6 yro when I purchased it from Brussels in Oct 08. It appeared to me to have some short needles already so I figured I would continue with the needle pruning. I really don't know what the final shape will or should be. So I may have slowed it down in an effort to try and maintain the existing shape.?
Quote: "I've been playing with pine trees for almost 10 years, and I am still getting the hang of it."
All this is still very new to me (2 year into bonsai) the more I look at and read about Pine, I get a Much more Respect for the tree and the person that has grown it!

Noissee, I agree that is excellent idea to keep the record ....just taking the time to do it is another thing. I am trying to keep up with my trees by purchase date, place of purchase and soil change and not doing very good job of it. But will try to do the same on the pine, thanks.

Chris, you may see from the start of this to Dave about the age of my pine and why I thought it was time to start or maintain what was already going on with it.

Quote:"Let's see your tree and see if we can come up with a plan specific to it."

I have read most of your articles and admire your work, wish I lived closer I would come to your workshop. So I very much appreciate your offer and opinion. I have some pictures that were posted here when I purchased the tree, I will upload them to this Thread and also a picture of before the candle plucking. The pine had some long candles that would have been much longer needles than the rest of tree if they were allowed to mature and open...(i think). the first and last pictures are from the day I got it, I realize now they don't show much of the structure of the tree, I can take more tomorrow. the other 2 show the candles before I cut them.
Thanks to all for the Help!
Keep LOOkin Up!
Michael

Michael,
You may have misunderstood my comment about it being to early to worry about candling this tree. I meant too early in the year. Forget what you have read about reaking candles before they open up. Let them get as long as they want and candle between mid-June and mid-July (depending on your microclimate).

This is the latest technique for training JBP and produces incredible results with balancing the energy and making needles that are proportionate to the tree.

Caveats:

Your tree must be very healthy with dark green foliage and strong candle growth.
Your tree must be in a very free-draining mix, and for best results, no organic material in the mix.
Be prepared to water more often.

Outline:

Spring: feed heavily with organic fertilizer cakes to push growth. Heavily means more than you have ever fed. Michael Persiano calls it "superfeeding." The Japanese call it "feeding." Allow candles to get as long as they want, do nothing to the tree. Just feed.
Based on the calendar, not the state of the candles, in mid-June or early July (Boon candles about June 15, I candle July 4 because we are much hotter in summer than the Bay are, remove all candles except the weakest few. Cut them at the base of the candles but leave a "neck" with no needles from 5cm to 10 cm long (stronger candles leave a longer neck and vice versa.
Now pull needles (these are last year's needles) leaving about 5 pairs at the top or stronger areas of the tree, and as many as 10 pairs in lower or weaker areas. Your tree will look like a plucked chicken.
Now is a good time to wire your tree, since there are no buds to damage.
Remove all fertilizer from your tree until after the new buds have opened and the needles have hardened. This will keep them smaller.
In ten days, new buds will spring up at the base of the candles.
LEAVE THESE BUDS ALONE! Forget what you have read about reducing them to two. You will find that the strongest bits have many and the weaker ones have few. Allowing them to compete keeps the many buds smaller than they would be, thus balancing the strength.
In late fall, reduce the new shoots to two per branchlet.
At this time, again reduce your needles by pulling them, again leaving 5 pairs on the strongest up to 10 pairs on the weaker.
You can also do light pruning, removing the old stubs and selecting branches.
Wiring is okay now if you can keep the tree from freezing for the winter. Otherwise wait until late winter/early spring.
Repeat if necessary. (It will be necessary).

This is a much simpler outline of how to care for pines than you have ever seen published, and it works wonders. Good luck and show us some good pics of your tree against a dark background from at least 4 directions. I look forward to seeing it.

Chris

treebeard55 · 05-05-2009, 10:35 PM

Chris,

Thanks for posting this! I'm trying to learn JBP culture myself; also trying to see how well JBP techniques can be adapted to Austrian pine.

FrankP999 · 05-05-2009, 10:57 PM

Chris,
That is extremely helpful information. I saved an electronic copy and filed it away for permanent reference.

Any more tips like that would be really helpful. Thanks

Frank

Ml_work · 05-06-2009, 12:13 AM

Chris, thanks for the info, I too added it to a word document for future use. I am not sure if I understand - Quote:"Let them get as long as they want and candle between mid-June and mid-July (depending on your microclimate)."
When I did cut the candles they were starting to open at the top, I do not know, but thought that they would have been full open and long needles if I waited that long.? Maybe I should look closer at the pines in my yard. Are you saying that only the top part opens up, it is not a needle/needles as long as the candle? In that case I can see how waiting would not make a big difference.
I will try and get some good pics, ran out of daylight this afternoon..a bike ride..water trees ..opps its dark.
Thanks,
Have A Great Day!
Michael

05-01-2009, 08:23 AM	#2 (permalink)
Dav4 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: SE Massachusetts Posts: 93	Hey Michael, I am no pine expert so take this with a grain of salt. Generally speaking, there should be no candle work or needle work on areas of your tree that will be removed eventually; ie., sacrificial branches. Candling, needle removal, and other needle shortening techniques are for trees further along in their training. Applying these techniques to a young tree early in its training will only slow down its development. When you "pinch" candles, you are basically breaking off approx. 1/4 to 3/4 off their length, based on the strength of the candle. Candles are "pinched" when the candle is no longer extending and the new needles are just beginning to push out. There needs to be new needles remaining on the pinched candle. It looks from your pics that you basically removed the entire candle. When this is done, dormant buds below the removed candle will activate and start to grow. This procedure, referred to as candling, is generally done later in the spring/early summer and is primarily used to force a second flush of growth with shorter needles. I've been playing with pine trees for almost 10 years, and I am still getting the hang of it. I've read loads of info, as well. Combining all this info along with observing my trees after pruning them has helped me develop a better understanding of how it all works. Good luck and have fun... that's what its all about. Dave Last edited by Dav4; 05-01-2009 at 08:40 AM..

05-05-2009, 10:35 PM	#8 (permalink)
treebeard55 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Warsaw IN, USA USDA zone 5b Posts: 510	Chris, Thanks for posting this! I'm trying to learn JBP culture myself; also trying to see how well JBP techniques can be adapted to Austrian pine. __________________ Treebeard 55 Steve Moore http://hoosierbonsai.blogspot.com The most important bonsai tool is your brain.

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05-01-2009, 12:09 PM	#3 (permalink)
noissee Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: florida panhandle Posts: 206	I am surely not a pine expert either, but I do have some advice. Start a word document or something that records exactly what you did and when, and then what the results were. a few years of records like these will be invaluable to help you understand the pine. It looks like a pretty healthy tree. and I think the brown tips on the long needles are sort of normal. Do you "pat" the needles to test their strrength? I used to do this to my tree, just to see if the needles were nice and strong, but it resulted in broken, brown tips.

05-05-2009, 07:43 AM	#6 (permalink)
Dav4 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: SE Massachusetts Posts: 93	Michael, I like the last pic- the flow of the trunk is nice...not sure about the roots though. Having a general idea of what you want the tree to look like is absolutely necessary before doing any pruning. Having said that, I will readily admit that I have had one JBP for 8 YEARS and I still haven't conclusively decided on it's final design...and yes, I have played around with candling/needle removal/approach grafting, etc on this tree over the last few years, as well. The tree is coming along, and I will shortly make a final decision about it. It will never be a great tree but it has taught me alot about growing and shaping pines. The only JBP I have killed died because I did extreme root reduction out of season... they are very forgiving trees. Have fun... Dave

05-05-2009, 10:57 PM	#9 (permalink)
FrankP999 Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Macon, Georgia Zone 7/8 Posts: 10	Chris, That is extremely helpful information. I saved an electronic copy and filed it away for permanent reference. Any more tips like that would be really helpful. Thanks Frank

05-06-2009, 12:13 AM	#10 (permalink)
Ml_work Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Alabama Posts: 277	Chris, thanks for the info, I too added it to a word document for future use. I am not sure if I understand - Quote:"Let them get as long as they want and candle between mid-June and mid-July (depending on your microclimate)." When I did cut the candles they were starting to open at the top, I do not know, but thought that they would have been full open and long needles if I waited that long.? Maybe I should look closer at the pines in my yard. Are you saying that only the top part opens up, it is not a needle/needles as long as the candle? In that case I can see how waiting would not make a big difference. I will try and get some good pics, ran out of daylight this afternoon..a bike ride..water trees ..opps its dark. Thanks, Have A Great Day! Michael

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