For pine lovers in colder climates

treebeard55 · 03-23-2009, 10:49 PM

I have yet to meet a pine species I didn't like. But my selection is limited by climate. (And by what's available locally, but that's an issue that can be dealt with by buying online from reputable vendors.)

Japanese black, one of the classics of classics, is not cold-hardy here when it's in a pot. (Tho it is in the ground.) I do have a couple of JBP's, but they will always need extra winter protection. Buying more wouldn't be wise, since my facilties for that extra protection have their limits.

So, what to do? I'd like to find a pine species of which I can keep more than one or two, so that I can work on them enough to acquire some real in-depth skill. I'd also like to find a pine that I can recommend to beginners as tough, forgiving, vigorous, and readily available around here.

So far, Austrian pine (Pinus nigra, aka European black pine) comes closest to filling the bill on both points.

I'm sure I'm not alone in this dilemma. Other pine-lovers-in-cold-climates, what do you do? Which species do you work with most? Can you keep the pines you like best, or do you have to find substitutes? I'm looking forward to hearing how others address this. Thanks!

Ml_work · 03-23-2009, 11:59 PM

Treebeard55....When I ask about purchasing a 5-Needle pine at Brussles last year I was told that it would be too hot here in the south for it. Brussels told me and some other buyers from up north said the same. (I do have 2 small 5 needle -like seedlings- that did make it through this summer) What I am saying is maybe the 5-needle would grow better in your climate.
Have A Great Day!
Michael

Dav4 · 03-24-2009, 07:33 AM

I've recently started working with Lodgepole pine, Pinus contorta. They are apparently closely related to ponderosas. There are two varieties...the inland versin is extremely cold hardy, like the ponderosa. The needles are also very small...the needles on the trees I have are 2" long at the most.

Pitch pine is another one to look for...they may grow naturally in your area- they are hardy to zone 4. Mugos, Japanese Red Pine and Japanes White pines would also be hardy for you.

I do think you might be selling JBP short, too. As you say, they are hardy to zone 5 in-ground. I would think placing the trees up against your foundation, mulched, with a wind screen would be more then enough. I have kept JBP outside here in zone 6 for 10 years...I usually just mulch the pots in my garden up against the fence. We've had winter lows approach -10F without damage to the trees. I really think the key is keeping them out of sun and wind when their roots are frozen. Just a thought.

Dave

bonsaikc · 03-24-2009, 01:17 PM

Scots pine is cold hardy and should be readily available in your area. Good luck!

Chris

Mattbonsai · 03-24-2009, 01:57 PM

Chris Beat me to it, but I would go Scots pine (Pinus sylvestris) if they can survive Scottish highland winters they can survive most things!

-Matt-

treebeard55 · 03-24-2009, 10:00 PM

Matt, I certainly like Scots pine; it just can be hard to come by around here. And yes, it's fully hardy in my zone.

Dave, I speak from sad experience of losing JBP's here; it's happened twice when I left them with the cold-hardies. We're in USDA zone 5, which means in a typical winter we should expect at least one or two nites of -20 F. Other JBP owners around here make sure they don't get too cold either. I'm certainly not trying to sell them short; I just don't want to lose any more!

And Mike -- it sounds like you sometimes face a dilemma that's the mirror-image of mine: there are pines you'd like to grow but your climate is too warm for them. Would you say that's the case?

dtree · 03-24-2009, 10:18 PM

If your facilities are limited, can you take your non-hardy trees to a bonsai studio greenhouse to winter them ?

Ml_work · 03-24-2009, 11:59 PM

Yes TreeBeard55, I think that would be correct about our climate, Or that is what I have been told by people with much more experience than me. The 5 needle that I did get and make it through the summer were $7.00 each...not $100.00, so it was worth the try. With my "lack" ok experience and knowledge I keep the investment per tree under the $100.00.
Have A Great Day!
Michael

MartinD · 03-25-2009, 10:32 AM

TB55
I live not too far from you(Lake County IN). I' ve had good luck growing Japanese White Pine. I currently have two and occasionally see them for sale at local nurseries(lanscape size usually and very expensive). They winter well for me in my garage with no problem.
Martin

treebeard55 · 03-25-2009, 05:53 PM

D, there are no bonsai studios for at least 100 miles in any direction! A local garden center would probably let me overwinter trees there, but I've never felt the need to ask. It's not that I don't have space for half-hardy trees, but that space is limited.

As for white -- 5-needle -- pines ... right now, for no reason I could give you, I prefer black and red pines. But it's probably safe to say that sooner or later, I'll expand my scope to include white pines as well. I understand that Japanese white pine are a tad more cold-hardy than JBP.

I've seen some very nice Japanese whites as bonsai: a JWP at the National Collection in Washington DC literally almost stopped me in my tracks when I first saw it. That tree was a gift from Japan, and was 350 years old when given to us in 1976. Still going strong, to my knowledge.

03-23-2009, 10:49 PM	#1 (permalink)
treebeard55 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Warsaw IN, USA USDA zone 5b Posts: 510	For pine lovers in colder climates I have yet to meet a pine species I didn't like. But my selection is limited by climate. (And by what's available locally, but that's an issue that can be dealt with by buying online from reputable vendors.) Japanese black, one of the classics of classics, is not cold-hardy here when it's in a pot. (Tho it is in the ground.) I do have a couple of JBP's, but they will always need extra winter protection. Buying more wouldn't be wise, since my facilties for that extra protection have their limits. So, what to do? I'd like to find a pine species of which I can keep more than one or two, so that I can work on them enough to acquire some real in-depth skill. I'd also like to find a pine that I can recommend to beginners as tough, forgiving, vigorous, and readily available around here. So far, Austrian pine (Pinus nigra, aka European black pine) comes closest to filling the bill on both points. I'm sure I'm not alone in this dilemma. Other pine-lovers-in-cold-climates, what do you do? Which species do you work with most? Can you keep the pines you like best, or do you have to find substitutes? I'm looking forward to hearing how others address this. Thanks! __________________ Treebeard 55 Steve Moore http://hoosierbonsai.blogspot.com The most important bonsai tool is your brain.

03-24-2009, 07:33 AM	#3 (permalink)
Dav4 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: SE Massachusetts Posts: 93	I've recently started working with Lodgepole pine, Pinus contorta. They are apparently closely related to ponderosas. There are two varieties...the inland versin is extremely cold hardy, like the ponderosa. The needles are also very small...the needles on the trees I have are 2" long at the most. Pitch pine is another one to look for...they may grow naturally in your area- they are hardy to zone 4. Mugos, Japanese Red Pine and Japanes White pines would also be hardy for you. I do think you might be selling JBP short, too. As you say, they are hardy to zone 5 in-ground. I would think placing the trees up against your foundation, mulched, with a wind screen would be more then enough. I have kept JBP outside here in zone 6 for 10 years...I usually just mulch the pots in my garden up against the fence. We've had winter lows approach -10F without damage to the trees. I really think the key is keeping them out of sun and wind when their roots are frozen. Just a thought. Dave Last edited by Dav4; 03-24-2009 at 07:42 AM..

03-24-2009, 01:17 PM	#4 (permalink)
bonsaikc What're YOU lookin' at? Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Ottawa, KS Posts: 155	Scots pine is cold hardy and should be readily available in your area. Good luck! Chris __________________ I am the 545th best crossword puzzle solver in the world! Sashi-no-eda Bonsai Blog

03-24-2009, 01:57 PM	#5 (permalink)
Mattbonsai Tree Hugger In Training Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cheshire, GB Posts: 801	Chris Beat me to it, but I would go Scots pine (Pinus sylvestris) if they can survive Scottish highland winters they can survive most things! -Matt- __________________ -Matt- http://www.cheshirebonsaisociety.org.uk/index.html R.I.P Our Great Friend - Prowler, 24th November 2008

03-24-2009, 10:00 PM	#6 (permalink)
treebeard55 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Warsaw IN, USA USDA zone 5b Posts: 510	Matt, I certainly like Scots pine; it just can be hard to come by around here. And yes, it's fully hardy in my zone. Dave, I speak from sad experience of losing JBP's here; it's happened twice when I left them with the cold-hardies. We're in USDA zone 5, which means in a typical winter we should expect at least one or two nites of -20 F. Other JBP owners around here make sure they don't get too cold either. I'm certainly not trying to sell them short; I just don't want to lose any more! And Mike -- it sounds like you sometimes face a dilemma that's the mirror-image of mine: there are pines you'd like to grow but your climate is too warm for them. Would you say that's the case? __________________ Treebeard 55 Steve Moore http://hoosierbonsai.blogspot.com The most important bonsai tool is your brain.

03-23-2009, 11:59 PM	#2 (permalink)
Ml_work Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Alabama Posts: 277	Treebeard55....When I ask about purchasing a 5-Needle pine at Brussles last year I was told that it would be too hot here in the south for it. Brussels told me and some other buyers from up north said the same. (I do have 2 small 5 needle -like seedlings- that did make it through this summer) What I am saying is maybe the 5-needle would grow better in your climate. Have A Great Day! Michael

03-24-2009, 10:18 PM	#7 (permalink)
dtree Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: St. Paul, MN, USA zone 4 Posts: 6	If your facilities are limited, can you take your non-hardy trees to a bonsai studio greenhouse to winter them ?

03-24-2009, 11:59 PM	#8 (permalink)
Ml_work Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Alabama Posts: 277	Yes TreeBeard55, I think that would be correct about our climate, Or that is what I have been told by people with much more experience than me. The 5 needle that I did get and make it through the summer were $7.00 each...not $100.00, so it was worth the try. With my "lack" ok experience and knowledge I keep the investment per tree under the $100.00. Have A Great Day! Michael

03-25-2009, 10:32 AM	#9 (permalink)
MartinD Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: NW Indiana Posts: 7	TB55 I live not too far from you(Lake County IN). I' ve had good luck growing Japanese White Pine. I currently have two and occasionally see them for sale at local nurseries(lanscape size usually and very expensive). They winter well for me in my garage with no problem. Martin

03-25-2009, 05:53 PM	#10 (permalink)
treebeard55 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Warsaw IN, USA USDA zone 5b Posts: 510	D, there are no bonsai studios for at least 100 miles in any direction! A local garden center would probably let me overwinter trees there, but I've never felt the need to ask. It's not that I don't have space for half-hardy trees, but that space is limited. As for white -- 5-needle -- pines ... right now, for no reason I could give you, I prefer black and red pines. But it's probably safe to say that sooner or later, I'll expand my scope to include white pines as well. I understand that Japanese white pine are a tad more cold-hardy than JBP. I've seen some very nice Japanese whites as bonsai: a JWP at the National Collection in Washington DC literally almost stopped me in my tracks when I first saw it. That tree was a gift from Japan, and was 350 years old when given to us in 1976. Still going strong, to my knowledge. __________________ Treebeard 55 Steve Moore http://hoosierbonsai.blogspot.com The most important bonsai tool is your brain.

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