Japanese black pine... any ideas?

Nate_B · 08-28-2008, 11:16 AM

So I have this Japanese black pine that I just got from a bonsai nursery. I don't really know where to begin as far as form goes as it is my first one I have worked on. I included a number of pictures the front, side, base and top.

I haven't really done much with it as I am afraid it is not late enough in the year to wire, prune, or pinch the buds. From what I have read, it is better to do this more in the fall.

Lots of long needles, but a few spots where they have come in shorter. All the branches have really healthy candles. There are a lot of branches at the base, which I am leaving for growing a wider base. Half way up, a new leader was used for the trunk so there is this funky bend in trunk which I'm not sure what to do with.

I have included a picture of what I am thinking about doing with it. I was recommended by some to go with the literati style and to take the shorter branch at the bend as the new apex. I have wired that up, added some bend in the lower trunk and moved the old apex out of the way so the new one can get more sun.

Mainly my questions are these: Does this makes sense? Any other ideas? Branch pruning - should I remove any of them? Candles, where would it be good to leave them and where remove them? and should I do anything with the old apex or let it grow for trunk thickening?

Mattbonsai · 08-28-2008, 02:57 PM

Hi Nate, first off, welcome to the site, we hope you will find it very helpful and informative.

I'm not all to familiar with Pines, so the info you receive will help me also, what I would do as far as branching goes, that branch that comes out where the pruning wound is, I'd leave that to grow and develop into a branch on the final tree, this should divert the eye from the kink.

I'd keep the apex growing as is, to thicken the trunk considerably, wiring it up to add shape,

How far down into the soil is the nebari?, if its a few inches, the first branch you can leave to become the first branch in the design (the ones on pines that stick out some distance at the bottom)

More people should chime in soon.

-Matt-

Nate_B · 08-28-2008, 03:04 PM

Thanks, Matt. Good thoughts, and I look forward to hearing what some others think, especially Brent.

Ravenna · 09-07-2008, 04:28 AM

Hi Nate,

I am not a pine expert either I fear but as it has been rather quiet here I thought I'd mention a couple of things. One question I had when I saw this tree how large you want it to be in the end.

Japanese black pines have rather long needles and hence they are not that suitable for shohin size bonsai. So I suspect you will have to go for something which is rather larger than shohin. But that will mean that developing this tree will take a long time and ideally growing it in the ground for some time.

As far as I can tell from the photos your tree has a very straight trunk and right now very little taper. As mentioned: the first point to look at is the nebari as it will help you decide which style will look realistic on your trees.

I could imagine that this tree could be grown with a slanted trunk at the base then growing right up. For that you would have to change the planting angle. I always find things difficult to judge on pics but I wonder whether It wouldn't be an idea to cut off the trunk down to the area where on the second pic this branch goes off to the right. Some trunk movements may seem extreme to you while you develop the trunk but don't forget that they attenuate as the tree grows.

If you then tilt the tree to the right (still talking of the 2nd pic) then you would have the first part of your final trunk movement. But in the end you have to decide what you see in the tree.

In bonsai the rule is that if you are unsure about an intervention it is always better first to wait and see till you are sure about where you want to go. You can always remove a branch but once it is gone that is it. Also try to look at your trees and decide in what kind of environnment they would grow in nature and what that would mean for the development of the rest of the tree. The idea is that with your one tree you can evoke a whole landscape.

I had the impression that you are starting out with bonsai so it might be worthwhile to read some books and try to see whether there is a bonsai club in your area. Books are always good but they can't replace a good teacher. One book I found helpful as a beginner is the book by H. Tomlinson "Bonsai encyclopaedia" and another one I really like is one I am currently finishing is the one on "Shohin bonsai" by Morton Albek though I think that is better as the second book.

Hope that helps a bit.

JTGJr25 · 09-07-2008, 10:24 PM

JBP's actually make very nice shohin bonsai so that is very much a possibility. Although, right now what this tree needs is to grow. Don't prune anything right now. Either plant it in a larger pot or put it in the ground. Here is an article that covers in detail how to grow JBP's Training Black Pines for Bonsai

I see that you are new to bonsai so I thought I'd offer some advice. I've noticed you have been acquiering very yound material with little potential and the only option that leaves you is to let it grow for a number of years. You will find yourself very frustrated that after a few years you have nothing to show for you efforts. What I suggest you do is plant all of your newly acquiered plants out to grow and in the mean time invest your money into purchasing material with greater potential. You will be much more satisfied and a lot less frustrated. I know because I took your path and am just now understanding what really needs to be done.

Also, read the internet, read books, and find a club or an experienced artist who can teach you in person. You will learn much faster if you have someone there to walk you threw it.

Good luck.

Tom

rtoms · 09-08-2008, 12:06 AM

I have to, kinda, agree with Tom. Bonsai takes a long time, its not something to be achieved overnight. These trees that you have shown, are a long way away from being what most of the bonsai "nation" will call a bonsai. However, I dont have 30 years to wait, and I dont have the ability to aquire advanced bonsai stock very easy. I do get them from time to time, but I love to buy trees from LOWES or HOME DEPOT and just see what I can do with them.
I think you should go with your idea you posted. Just understand your not going to "wow" anyone with it. It will show you how a JBP reacts to being chopped. I think you will see that it can reduce needle size very well. You should also know that reducing needle size on a JBP is usually the last thing you do, sometimes around a year or so before a show. Working on less expensive, younger specimen have taught me all the techniques I use on my A-Team bonsai! I dont try out anything new, unless it can pass my LOWES team!

rtoms · 09-08-2008, 12:16 AM

What I would do is plant this tree in the ground, and be sure to plant it over a large flat rock, or a drip tray. When the roots hit the tray or rock they will move outward. This will help in the correct growth of roots, and the future building of nebari. In the spring I would chop off the blue spraypainted part. Let the rest grow. Research proper fertalizer for JBP, I use a general 10-10-10, but w/e. This is the fastest way to get the tree to grow. Do not cut off the lowest branch. Letting it grow will encourage the trunk to grow. Good luck!

Nate_B · 09-08-2008, 12:19 AM

Thanks for all the feedback you guys. I was kinda getting that impression. I suppose it may be a good idea for me to purchase some older stock. This is doable to an extent.

I do have one question though. From what I have read on JBP's, they say you should put in a bigger pot in the spring when the roots are really in grow mode. True? Or could I repot this now, knowing that it will have a good month more of good weather?

I have some other pines as well that need repotting... is it too late in the season to pot? What do you think?

From what I understand about roots... its way better to leave as many roots in place before winter because that's where the reserves are. It's a bit frustrating that I got all these trees late in the summer as there isn't really much I can do other than a little bit of trimming. Alas, this is the lesson I am learning. Slow down.

Thanks again.

rtoms · 09-08-2008, 12:25 AM

forgot to post this.

rtoms · 09-08-2008, 12:29 AM

IMO, which should always be taken with a grain of salt, this tree should not be in the same area code as a pot. I dunno about the proper repotting time. Maybe someone else will comment.

08-28-2008, 02:57 PM	#2 (permalink)
Mattbonsai Tree Hugger In Training Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cheshire, GB Posts: 801	Hi Nate, first off, welcome to the site, we hope you will find it very helpful and informative. I'm not all to familiar with Pines, so the info you receive will help me also, what I would do as far as branching goes, that branch that comes out where the pruning wound is, I'd leave that to grow and develop into a branch on the final tree, this should divert the eye from the kink. I'd keep the apex growing as is, to thicken the trunk considerably, wiring it up to add shape, How far down into the soil is the nebari?, if its a few inches, the first branch you can leave to become the first branch in the design (the ones on pines that stick out some distance at the bottom) More people should chime in soon. -Matt- __________________ -Matt- http://www.cheshirebonsaisociety.org.uk/index.html R.I.P Our Great Friend - Prowler, 24th November 2008

09-08-2008, 12:19 AM	#8 (permalink)
Nate_B Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bend, OR Posts: 11	Thanks for all the feedback you guys. I was kinda getting that impression. I suppose it may be a good idea for me to purchase some older stock. This is doable to an extent. I do have one question though. From what I have read on JBP's, they say you should put in a bigger pot in the spring when the roots are really in grow mode. True? Or could I repot this now, knowing that it will have a good month more of good weather? I have some other pines as well that need repotting... is it too late in the season to pot? What do you think? From what I understand about roots... its way better to leave as many roots in place before winter because that's where the reserves are. It's a bit frustrating that I got all these trees late in the summer as there isn't really much I can do other than a little bit of trimming. Alas, this is the lesson I am learning. Slow down. Thanks again. __________________ Nate www.natebettger.com

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08-28-2008, 03:04 PM	#3 (permalink)
Nate_B Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bend, OR Posts: 11	Thanks, Matt. Good thoughts, and I look forward to hearing what some others think, especially Brent.

09-07-2008, 04:28 AM	#4 (permalink)
Ravenna Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Switzerland Posts: 204	Hi Nate, I am not a pine expert either I fear but as it has been rather quiet here I thought I'd mention a couple of things. One question I had when I saw this tree how large you want it to be in the end. Japanese black pines have rather long needles and hence they are not that suitable for shohin size bonsai. So I suspect you will have to go for something which is rather larger than shohin. But that will mean that developing this tree will take a long time and ideally growing it in the ground for some time. As far as I can tell from the photos your tree has a very straight trunk and right now very little taper. As mentioned: the first point to look at is the nebari as it will help you decide which style will look realistic on your trees. I could imagine that this tree could be grown with a slanted trunk at the base then growing right up. For that you would have to change the planting angle. I always find things difficult to judge on pics but I wonder whether It wouldn't be an idea to cut off the trunk down to the area where on the second pic this branch goes off to the right. Some trunk movements may seem extreme to you while you develop the trunk but don't forget that they attenuate as the tree grows. If you then tilt the tree to the right (still talking of the 2nd pic) then you would have the first part of your final trunk movement. But in the end you have to decide what you see in the tree. In bonsai the rule is that if you are unsure about an intervention it is always better first to wait and see till you are sure about where you want to go. You can always remove a branch but once it is gone that is it. Also try to look at your trees and decide in what kind of environnment they would grow in nature and what that would mean for the development of the rest of the tree. The idea is that with your one tree you can evoke a whole landscape. I had the impression that you are starting out with bonsai so it might be worthwhile to read some books and try to see whether there is a bonsai club in your area. Books are always good but they can't replace a good teacher. One book I found helpful as a beginner is the book by H. Tomlinson "Bonsai encyclopaedia" and another one I really like is one I am currently finishing is the one on "Shohin bonsai" by Morton Albek though I think that is better as the second book. Hope that helps a bit.

09-07-2008, 10:24 PM	#5 (permalink)
JTGJr25 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: South Jersey Posts: 230	JBP's actually make very nice shohin bonsai so that is very much a possibility. Although, right now what this tree needs is to grow. Don't prune anything right now. Either plant it in a larger pot or put it in the ground. Here is an article that covers in detail how to grow JBP's Training Black Pines for Bonsai I see that you are new to bonsai so I thought I'd offer some advice. I've noticed you have been acquiering very yound material with little potential and the only option that leaves you is to let it grow for a number of years. You will find yourself very frustrated that after a few years you have nothing to show for you efforts. What I suggest you do is plant all of your newly acquiered plants out to grow and in the mean time invest your money into purchasing material with greater potential. You will be much more satisfied and a lot less frustrated. I know because I took your path and am just now understanding what really needs to be done. Also, read the internet, read books, and find a club or an experienced artist who can teach you in person. You will learn much faster if you have someone there to walk you threw it. Good luck. Tom

09-08-2008, 12:06 AM	#6 (permalink)
rtoms Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Athens GA Posts: 30	I have to, kinda, agree with Tom. Bonsai takes a long time, its not something to be achieved overnight. These trees that you have shown, are a long way away from being what most of the bonsai "nation" will call a bonsai. However, I dont have 30 years to wait, and I dont have the ability to aquire advanced bonsai stock very easy. I do get them from time to time, but I love to buy trees from LOWES or HOME DEPOT and just see what I can do with them. I think you should go with your idea you posted. Just understand your not going to "wow" anyone with it. It will show you how a JBP reacts to being chopped. I think you will see that it can reduce needle size very well. You should also know that reducing needle size on a JBP is usually the last thing you do, sometimes around a year or so before a show. Working on less expensive, younger specimen have taught me all the techniques I use on my A-Team bonsai! I dont try out anything new, unless it can pass my LOWES team!

09-08-2008, 12:16 AM	#7 (permalink)
rtoms Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Athens GA Posts: 30	What I would do is plant this tree in the ground, and be sure to plant it over a large flat rock, or a drip tray. When the roots hit the tray or rock they will move outward. This will help in the correct growth of roots, and the future building of nebari. In the spring I would chop off the blue spraypainted part. Let the rest grow. Research proper fertalizer for JBP, I use a general 10-10-10, but w/e. This is the fastest way to get the tree to grow. Do not cut off the lowest branch. Letting it grow will encourage the trunk to grow. Good luck!

09-08-2008, 12:29 AM	#10 (permalink)
rtoms Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Athens GA Posts: 30	IMO, which should always be taken with a grain of salt, this tree should not be in the same area code as a pot. I dunno about the proper repotting time. Maybe someone else will comment.

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