chriscc63

I have grown these from seeds and are about 2 years old now. About 10 of them are trident maples and I forgot what the other two are. They were in a rather shady spot but I have recently transplanted them to a slightly sunnier spot. Unfortunitly I may lose two of them as you can see from the shriveled leaves so I will put those two back where they were.

I know I am crazy to try Bonsai from scratch but I hope I live long enough to see them grow into something.

The photos show a yellowish 12" scale next to them to show you scale.

I have been curious as to how long I should wait until the first pruning/pinch back should take place? But the big question is what should I do now? Trunk chop any of them? take them out of pots and put them in the ground or leave them in their pots?

I respect every ones advice here thank you,
Christopher in The Bronx

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noissee

the soil looks crappy. I would plant them directly in the ground. mix some mushroom compost or at least something into your growing bed. Also read up on a humic acid, and try to incorporate this into your fertilizing schedule. These things need a lot of growth before you can do any kind of trunk chopping. I don't know if you've ever heard it, but it is a good bonsai ratio: 6:1. Tree height being "6" and trunk width being "1." If you want bonsai to look at all decent, you should try to shoot for that ratio. Good choice of material though. After a few years in the ground you might be able to make a small bonsai. In the meantime you should get something a little further along to practice on.

chriscc63

I agree with everything you said. These saplings started out in good top soil but that was maybe 2-3 years now outside so thats all washed away and replaced with just dirt.

I have heard of the 6:1 ratio but hadn't even though to apply it here since they are more like 30 : 1 now.

I have heard of people doing a chop now to promote lower branch growth and pinch backs to keep leaves small, but I am not sure if either of these would apply.

My theory was that if I grew them in a reasonably sized pot it would control there growth without stunting its growth, but I guess thats a fine line.

So you think I should sit on them for a few more years, but wouldn't they be like 6' tall by then?

thanks Chris

noissee

People chopping back for lower growth are most likely working with pines. That is something you do to a pine at an early stage, but these species that you have selected won't have any problem putting out lower growth later on in their lives.

chriscc63

And now the bonsai basic 101 question; how do I prevent these fellas from growing 20' tall in order to get a 1" thick trunk?

I have two others that are 4'+- but only have 5/8" thick at base. I fear these will be legitimate trees if I just ignore them.

Thanks

noissee

It does take awhile. And, now that I think about it, maybe you should experiment. Chop one of them low to get low branches, and grow out the bottom branches as sacrifices. only let the bottom ones grow, and one leader shoot growing straight up. Leave the other ones alone. I can't say which one I think would thicken faster, but it will be a good experiment.
p.s. How long did it take to get to 4'?

chriscc63

ITS 2-1/2 YEARS OLD NOW.

IT IS COMPETING FOR SUN WHERE IT IS NOW SO THAT MAY HAVE ADDED TO ITS CLIMBING SPURT.

I'LL GET A PIC OR TWO OVER THE WEEKEND.

JLDoggett

Heavy feeding will help a lot.

You could chop them to 2-feet high in the spring and let them grow wild for another 2 years in the hopes the bases of the trunks thicken closer to the size you want. the following year you could chope them to 1-foot high and again let it grow wildly for 2 years.

In four years you can cut them back to 6-7 inches tall and start on getting movement in the trunks by choosing just one branch to wire as your new leader and keeping the others pruned.

in six years you can chop the leader and choose one of the new sprouts as your new leader, again wiring it and letting it grow for a year or two.

In year 8 you should be nearing a well developed trunk about 12-14 inches tall so you can think of branchs and apex. Now would be the time to consider removal of the sacrifice branches and managing back-budding form ideal branch placement to fit your image of what your trees will eventually look like.

During all these years hopefully you have been tending to the roots making sure they are being spread well and horizontally so they will be tight to the trunk and in good shape to go into a growbox.

After a year of recovery from the stress of moving from the ground to the growbox

In year 10, you will be ready to start on the styling of the tree. At this point you should have stock with well developed roots, nice trunks and some options for branch placement.

I have 40 small leaf, Bradford pear trees, 20 maples, some apples, a few mulberries and a lot of pines in years 4-6 of the above schedule. Lucky for me, I am just past the half century mark so I will have some interesting material to work on when I an in my 60's.

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centaura

At least you're admitting it. Growing bonsai from seed can be a very rewarding prospect, but its also a very long and difficult road. Its actually easier to start learning on nursery stock than to try to learn bonsai by starting from seed. Working with older material helps you develop an 'eye' for trunk lines, movement and etc. - which is all stuff that you are controlling from the start when you're working with seedlings. If you do not feel comfortable in your design skills, its hard to start a design from scratch (i.e. start a bonsai from seed).

First off - I would not do anything with your seedlings right now. Its fall, and they are storing reserves and setting their buds for next year. You do not want to do anything that will encourage new growth right now, since that new growth will not have time to harden before the frosts come. In the spring, I would transplant things to a sunnier spot and let them grow. JL has a good timeline that you can follow for development. Unfortunately - if you want thick trunks, you need to let the trees grow wild. Two years ago in the spring I had a 6' (foot) tall trident that I cut back to 6" (inches), which will eventually be a tree with a finished height of around 10". To get the size trunk that I wanted for the 10" tall tree - I needed to let the material get 6' tall. Its almost two feet tall again, but that is because I need that wild growth to callous over the large wound from cutting it - I did very little to the tree this year and last year, since I needed all its growth for wound healing. I may or may not make my next cut next spring - it depends on how the callous looks when I put the tree away this winter. It might need a third year of healing before I can make another big cut and then start on its branch development. Yes, the trunk would heal over eventually even if I made the next cut - but the more time I give it to recover from each step, the better the finished tree will look - wounds heal much slower when the growth of a tree is constrained, or stressed - such as major stylings/prunings.

-Centaura

chriscc63

Of course before I did all this I did a lot of fun reading here at this forum.

You guys have given me a nice outline which to follow and I hope I am successfully with this endeavor. JLD your time line really parallels other readings I have done.

Everyone here said to just let them grow wild but I am having a hard time wanting to take them out of the pots I have them in. I only do this because they are still small and so I can just move them around when I need to.

You say centaura that I should move them to a sunnier spot in the spring? I thought these were shade species, wont they burn? One would think that theses guys would benefit form the sunny spot during the winter just to keep them warmer.

I like your idea Centaura of playing with a mature tree, but felt this was cheating, even though its not at all, I just felt it would be my baby if I did it from seed.

Its impossible to find any mature stock in the wild of trident Maples or Chinese elm, for example , to play with and it could be rather expensive to start buying from nursery just to chop it down and see if it lives. Thats another reason I chose to start from seed. Its clear I have to start more seedlings this spring just in case I only end up with one surviver of what I have now growing.

So as you suggested I will just sit on some of them for another few years, look into exactly what a "grow box" looks like and does.