Ginkawa

So I've been reading and discussing on a few forums about a project I have in mind, and gotten a variety of viewpoints. some more helpful than others.

the short of it, to boil it down, is that I want to try out bonsai. heres the problem. the species that gets my interest up the most, grows best in zones 7-10.
I live in 5...

now, on top of that, at the moment, I feel like it would fit me best to actually... <cringe> grow the material options for it, from seed.

(in particular, its Pomegranate, and yes, I know they aren't real solid about growing true to parent, I'm not that worried about that)

so, on that matter, what advice might you give to help this idea turn out the best it can. my current idea/plan is to basically try making a little greenhouse type thing, and possibly supplement natural light with a grow light. by my figuring, this should give them a little more warmth, and sufficient light. and I should be able to shelter them for the cold weather without much trouble.

thoughts on that?

the other matter I am looking for opinions on, is Trunk Chops.
this seems to be a foregone conclusion in most things I've read that deal with it at all...
but am I the only one that thinks these super-fat trunks, with a huge, radical cut to a (by comparison) tiny little branch, looks kinda silly? (for example, in "The Complete book of Bonsai" by Harry Tomlinson, the example for the Trident Maple, great, huge trunk, then SLAM, harsh shift to half the size that reduces further very rapidly. is that really seen as a preferable taper?)
I mean I get that taper is good, but can't that be gotten by controlling the growth, perhaps growing the tree to one height, (say, a third of the desired final height?) then more organically encouraging one branch or whatever to grow a bit further, then grow that out a little more, and thicken it... ect.. rather than grow the whole thing out to 3" and lop it off and have a swath of tiny branches covering the sudden shift?

or would that just not work?

I mean from one thing I was reading, it sounds like you can adjust trunk growth by where along the trunk growth occurs? like it suggested growing out a "sacrifice branch" as a means to increase growth up to that point for a time, then cutting it off when the approximate ratio or whatever, is achieved.

things like that seem a hell of a lot more graceful to me than just lopping the thing off...

am I being totally naive and wrong-headed here?

I mentioned how the idea of getting a grown out shrub from a nursery and hacking away at it, didn't really appeal to me. and a person said that doing that at some point is inevitable, and that growing from seed just means growing it to that state yourself rather than letting someone else do it.
are they right? or just impatient and can't conceive of another way to do things?

I mean getting a shrub and hacking at it seems like it WOULD be much quicker to something "bonsai-ish" but doesn't it take time to heal over all that hacking? to "fix" things that could have been grown differently to begin with?

Sir Speedy

I have to agree with the sudden chopping of the trunk. One way to get around the sudden flat chop is to chop, train a new leader, and then the following year, or later that year for a fast growing tree, make that flat chop an angled chop. The flat chop should be a little higher than the desired top of the angled cut. Something similar to that can be done with trees grown out in the ground with the difference being that the tree is chopped just above the lowest branch and then train that as the new leader or trunk. If the growing tips are nipped/pinched off hopefully some back-budding will occur, and the process repeated the following year untill the desired height is achieved.

As for the pomegranate, it can be grown inside or in the "greenhouse" as you mentioned. Just make sure it doesnt freeze, that will kill it. I found that out the hard way. It was doing very well inside under a 65w equivilent CFL bulb. The day I took it outside I forgot to bring it back in and the temps dropped that night. The next day we had strong winds and the poor little guy's (yes my trees are boys or girls and most have names) leaves were are shriveled up. He never was able to pull through. The funny part of that event is that my Ficus, which has been beaten and abused from day one, was outside with the pomegranate and is still going strong. I lost ONE leaf off it. The Ficus even has a debarked ring where an airlayer didnt take for some reason. I have heard of a Russian variety that is supposedly more hardy than regular Punicas but I cant think of the name.

I am pretty new to the hobby as well so please dont take what I say the absolute truth, I know just enough to be dangerous.

Speedy

Ginkawa

thanks for the thoughts.

I have read about some of what you mention on the trunk chopping, but what I am thinking of is more along the lines of like, doing "little" trunk chops, I guess, progressively as it grows, like growing it so that, the first third(of the desired height) of the trunk, to a third of the desired drunk thickness, and cutting it back to the third of desired height level, THEN doing like you mention, and perhaps AGAIN when the middle-third portion is ~2/3 of the desired thickness(at this time, the lower third should be about 2/3 of its desired thickness too?) and cut that to the 2/3 height, and pick a new leader...

now I am eager to be corrected if that isn't how it works... but if that, or something like it(I mean, maybe growing the base out more to compensate for slowed growth, or something) would work, wouldn't that be a much more graceful way of achieving a taper that is smoother in actuality, rather than depending on illusion?

oh a random additional question in case anyone who might know, sees this...

does anyone know for sure, if Japanese Maples, Japanese Black/White pines, and Trident Maples, can survive within the influence of Black Walnut's poisoning?
(black walnuts put off a chemical that kills many plants. a relative that lives nearby, has some yard/garden space that isn't being used because of this, and I can use the space if what I want to grow, can survive there. and I figure field-growing would need less attention anyway, so only being able to actually mess with them once a week or something might be ok, if the species's grow well in those conditions, unlike the pomegranates that would need to be fussed over.

Sir Speedy

I dont see why doing what you are talking wouldn't work, and sounds similar to what I was talking about. If anything both methods might take a little longer to get the desired results but would, in my opinion, result in a more graceful taper.

As for the Walnut issue, I remember reading somewhere that the "poisoning" of the soil is more along the lines of stunting or negating seed germination. I will see if can find more information for you.

This is what I found sorry, I dont know how to make a link...

A little indepth and a list of tolerant and intolerant trees shrubs and vines...
http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/430/430-021/430-021.html

Ginkawa

Thanks, that is a page on the matter that I hadn't seen, good to see that at least on that list, japanese maple, and a few of the local species I was thinking about trying cuttings of can grow there.

I wonder about japanese pines.

anyway, hope I can get some more thoughts on the trunk chopping/taper thing, thanks for your thoughts on it, at least I'm not the only one who feels that way and thinks that could work.

Sir Speedy

If it were me, I would get the cutting going in a pot for at least the summer to make sure the roots are growing nice and strong and then transfer it to the ground disturbing the roots as little as possible. Maybe even dig a bigger hole than needed and backfill with amended soil.

Ginkawa

yeah, probably a good idea, thinking of trying to start some other stuff (some japanese maples for rootstock and practice, and some Japanese Black/White pines) in a very "give it a little bit of effort, but not obsessing, and see what happens" at the garden area... like just get the dirt loosened up, maybe mix in some stuff to aerate it some, plop some seeds, fert+water it once a week or so, and get it to be watered additionally once a week or so other than that... and just let them grow on their own without much tending. not sure what the odds of getting much good out of that, but, at very least whatever DOES happen, will likely be educational.

Sir Speedy

Yep, you got the right idea. Most people will grow their trees in the ground for a couple years anyway. The growth ratio is about 7:1 versus growing in a pot. Meaning that the growth that will be achieved growing in a pot for 7 years is about what you would get growing in the ground. The reason for that is root restriction. A wooden, or composite, box is the next best thing to growing in the ground, Just dont use pressure treated lumber. Growing in a box is also used for stuff like the Pomegranates you talked about that are growing out of their normal hardiness zones, allowing you to bring them out of the cold. Speaking of Pomegranates I bought two on EBay that should be arriving tomorrow. Knowing what I did wrong with the last one, hopefully these guys get to hang out with me for a couple years. They are dwarf variety and weren't advertised as Bonsai starters. You'll notice that anytime Bonsai is listed with anything the price jumps up. (I paid less than $20 for two versus $20 something for one "pre bonsai") Keep that in mind and think outside the box when you start buying tools and other things.

Ginkawa

I have actually heard about the growing difference, and from what I've read its not actually just a matter of root restriction, but of drainage and stuff. heres a link I was given about the matter.

Why the Earth Is Not Like a Pot

though I hadn't even thought of the idea of using a wooden container, thats actually a really good idea, especially for the start when they are little. I was hoping to try at least at some parts of things on the poms to grow them in largr enough containers to have no real root restriction.

been trying to stew on how to maybe be able to try to simulate the "open ground" drainage in an optimal way.

the various things I've read make me wonder if it would be possible to use very large potting containers, maybe layer the soils(at least at the bottom?) and try to basically make it so the trees don't have to try too hard (or reach too deep) to get all the water they want. but the wood growing container thing could be an interesting idea. definitely gives me something to think about.

Sir Speedy

That was quite intersting. I had been wondering about why we use the soil we do etc. Now it all makes perfect sense.